INTERVIEW: Zeal & Ardor (July 2018)

If the music industry’s current litigious streak is anything to go by, it’s an accepted truism that there really isn’t much in the way of musical territory left to be forged – every genre permutation imaginable has now been used up, and every last time signature or melodic combination thoroughly exhausted. Composers and songwriters are all doomed to wander the earth in a plagiaristic stupor, warily dishing out a line of increasingly absurd co-writer credits to everyone from Right Said Fred to the Gaye family.

And then, just when you think you’ve heard everything music has to offer, along comes Swiss-born visionary Manuel Gagneux to set the raw pain of African-American history to pulverising blast-beats and coruscating black metal. With Zeal & Ardor’s full-length debut album, Stranger Fruit - the follow-up to last year’s attention-grabbing Devil is Fine EP - Gagneux has created what is hands-down the boldest, most audacious artistic statement of 2018. I mean, just look at that title, for fuck's sake!

For all their brutality, however, Gagneux’s band remains curiously listenable, packing an irrepressible groove and melodicism born of the repetitive chants which underpin its crunching musical foundations (ferociously brought to life by producer Zebo Adam and Converge / Kvelertak mixer Kurt Ballou). A musical companion-piece of sorts to Nate Parker’s searing recent film The Birth of a Nation, it is that rare album which achieves the seemingly impossible: it creates something totally new. I chatted with the coolly-spoken but surprisingly affable Gagneux from his base in Switzerland during the summer to find out more about his intentions and motivations with this project.

First of all, I’ve got to tell you – I can’t imagine there’s going to be another album this year that comes anywhere close to being as bold and startling as this one. I think it’s absolutely stunning, and I’m interested to know how you feel about me pre-emptively naming it Album of 2018 – not just musically, but socially as well.

Ohhh… strange! I mean, the year isn’t even half-done yet, and… I dunno. It seems confusing to me – but I’m happy, nonetheless…?! [Laughs]

There was a sense, I felt, with the EP that your sound was a bit of an idea-in-progress to start with, but this album really brings it out fully-formed. Would you agree with that – do you think Stranger Fruit presents a more cohesive vision of what you’re trying to achieve with Zeal & Ardor?

Definitely – I see Devil is Fine more as a proofed concept more than anything else, right now. Because, as you said, it doesn’t seem too cohesive - and quite eclectic, but not in a good way. And with this release, we really kind of defined it and gave it a cohesive theme.

The album’s press release seems to suggest there’s an additional concept at work this time around, which is the idea that American slaves revolted against imposed Christianity in the same way that Scandinavian black metal did. When did that idea enter the fray?

Actually, that was the idea of the concept of the band to begin with. But I think it didn’t really shine through - or come to fruition, if you forgive the pun! - until Stranger Fruit.

It’s become common knowledge now about where the idea for the band came from, but I’m interested to follow up on the fact that it was suggested on a 4Chan messageboard by someone who could best be described as an Alt-Right shit-stirrer, and at worst as a racist. Was there ever a moment where you thought “Alright, I’ll take your suggestion – oh, and by the way, FUCK YOU, here’s what that sounds like”…?

Oh, actually that was exactly the initial emotion, because I figured that the bigger “Fuck you” would not be to be offended – which was the reaction that person was trying to incite – but to actually make a song that would be half-decent. And I think by now I kind of achieved that, so there’s the “Fuck you”! [Laughs]

Did you feel like you’ve very much turned the joke on them…?

I do, yeah. But it remains to be seen if that person ever talks, or speaks up… we’ll see! [Laughs]

It’s kind of a cliché for writers to ask musicians who their major influences are, but it seems particularly interesting in your case. How about on the metal side of things, first of all?

Um, I really like people who try new stuff – I guess Devin Townsend really has a free approach to what harsh music can do, which I adore. And then there’s Mr. Bungle - I don’t know if that even counts as metal, but Fantômas and Mr. Bungle were huge influences on me, as far as metal goes. But straightforward metal… just, you know, basic stuff like Necrophagist, the death metal band… and of course, like, Maiden, and all the classics.

You can definitely hear the Devin Townsend influence – particularly all those pulverising blast-beats that you put in there.

[Effecting haughty, mock-indignant persona] “…I don’t know what you’re talking about, it’s a very original thing of mine…!” [Laughs] …Yeah, definitely.

What about in terms of the African-American musical history underpinning this – the chain-gang songs, the gospel and the field spirituals – where do you draw inspiration from there?

Uh, well, I was checking out old field recordings from the ’20s to the ’40s – there’s a huge library of them recorded by this guy called Alan Lomax, who basically devoted his life to recording the then-young nation of America’s folk music. And he went into fields and into prisons, and just recorded the people there. Most of them just remain anonymous – it’s all, like, up for grabs; most of them are in the public domain by now.

It does feel very ‘researched’ as a piece of work – the songs often sound familiar, yet still original in their own right. I remember there was all that business with Moby when Play came out, and he was accused of basically plagiarising African-American musical history - do you feel like you’re paying tribute to it?

…Yeeeeah… I mean, I wouldn’t even be above saying that I plagiarise it also - but it’s a very delicate subject, because a lot of people feel very strongly about that sort of thing, or that particular brand of music. So to sort of ham-handedly try something would be maybe interesting, but not too wise. And it’s also just fun to properly research things – to me, at least.

I said recently that in an age of Black Lives Matter, you may have just hit upon the last great radical act in music. It seems to me like the very idea of Zeal & Ardor as presented is a provocation, particularly given the current climate in America. Was that ever the intention?

Uh, initially it wasn’t – but I think, especially with the political climate now being the shitstorm that it is, it would just be dumb not to address what’s going on. So I guess I kind of reorganised things to make it more - for lack of a better word - ‘topical’… or just more current, I guess.

Obviously we’ve had Childish Gambino’s This is America getting a lot of attention recently - do you see yourself as being part of that cultural conversation that’s going on, or are you sort of keen to distance yourself from that?

Um, I would never want to distance myself from that. It would be cowardice to. But I also am very cautious of capitalising on the situation – which would be the most evil thing to do, I believe. So I think just to have the commentary there without it being too blatant, to me is the best way to go, because it can be a very thin line between saying something important, and marketing people’s plights and making money off of it.

The reason I ask this is in relation to a couple of things – one is the album title. It strikes me that there’s no way you can call an album Stranger Fruit in the present-day and not know what historical parallels you’re invoking. When did that phrase come to the fore?

Actually, that was pretty much the… I had the album title even prior to going into the studio and recording this stuff. Yeah, the essential was always to address the orange elephant in the room, and not to do it in a way that was too on-the-nose. Because I think if you have a good message in music, that’s fine and dandy - but if the music isn’t good, you’re also ruining the message.

Secondly though, the lyrical content – particularly when married to the musical concept – seems to evoke very specific imagery and meaning. ‘Servants’ and ‘Row Row’ can be read as the empowerment of a slave revolt. It’s difficult not to hear the tale of the Amistad in ‘Ship On Fire’. And particularly interesting to me was ‘Don’t You Dare’, which appears to equate Southern racism with the horror of Satanic ritual. Would you resist that sort of a reading and prefer to leave it up to the listener’s interpretation, or are you happy to have it pinned down a bit more specifically?

Um, I personally would like to resist it… but I will also say you’re pretty much on the money as to where my intentions went with those songs! [Laughs] …Yeah.

I saw the band performing live when you supported Prophets of Rage at Brixton Academy last year, and no-one seemed to know to know what to make of you. I get the impression that maybe part of you is quite pleased with that as a reaction.

Well, yes - because in the end of the day, I’m a musician, I make pretty sounds… and that’s not even an objective description because, you know… people have opinions! But for me it’s important to get my words out, but I also don’t want to force my opinions on others. I think if you want to read into it, it’s certainly there; but if you want to just headbang to a rock song, it’s also a possibility. Because in the end, I don’t claim to have a more valid opinion than anyone else – but I just like to curate the state that currently America is in.

It seems like the way you present yourself as a band – six people in a line, all dressed in black, fairly static throughout – lends itself to the idea of it being an artistic performance piece that’s there to be absorbed in its entirety. Would you agree with that? Is the idea to have people sort of take a step back and really contemplate what’s going on?

Well, very much. Because, like I said, the option to just headbang is always there - but if you’re, say, more attentive, there’s small things we do onstage that might lead you to believe there’s more things at play there. To me, half the fun is having people guess what that is.

Are you happy with the idea of it being an opinion-splitting band? There’s a friend of mine who’s a music writer, and his reaction to the EP was basically: “I’m not sure that I get this”.  I said, “I’m not sure I do, either… but it’s brilliant”.

Hahahaha! Yes, I’m very happy with that. That’s pretty much the exact thing I was going for!

Does that kind of chime with your conception of art in general, do you think?

Well, yes. But I also feel that art which needs to curate or explain itself is weak art. So if you have an immediate emotion, that might just be what it is – but if you have more time, and maybe you’re smart enough to read into it, that’s also a possibility.

What’s the deal with these little instrumental pieces that crop up on the album and EP – they’re almost like musical doodles, in a way. What do they symbolise?

Well, to me it was really important to have the album be listenable in one go – so they’re kind of like a break for your ears…? They also serve as a contrast to, like, the rougher parts – them being as soft and gentle as they are, they make the rougher parts, the rougher tracks, seem even harsher. So that was the intent of them.

I know that quite a few major names in the rock scene – Tom Morello, Slash, Corey Taylor – lent their support or praise to Devil is Fine when it came out. How much of a boost was that? Was there a turning-point where you felt more confident to fully explore this idea you’d hit upon?

You know, I never really thought about that. But maybe it actually did boost the morale, as it were…? I haven’t really pondered that yet, but it certainly didn’t hurt.

Pretty much everyone is a Rage Against the Machine fan – what was that like, to support a band like Prophets of Rage?

Uh, super-bizarre! I think the Brixton Academy was one of the best gigs we had with them. We also opened for them in… what was it… not Andorra, but in Luxembourg.  And the people there were… very much there to see Prophets of Rage, and not us! [Laughs] It was so palpable!

Did you get bottled…?!

No, no, no. Nothing like that. There was, uh… a palpable ambivalence! [Laughs]

I saw Rage play back in the 90s and there was a guy called James Hall supporting them, who was sort of, I guess, a jazz trumpeter…? And I swear to God, I’ve never seen a more hostile reaction from a bunch of metalheads.

Oh, shit!

Yeah. They proper bottled them, but the band still managed to make it all the way through! When you’re faced with an audience like that, do you tend to get disheartened, or just really dig in?

You know, that only happened that one time. But we kind of bit into that apple, and kind of fed off it. Because there comes a point where you’re playing against an audience – and if you’re making angry music, that’s certainly a boost. So we had our fun! [Laughs]

I read a really interesting piece in which you talked about this idea of the logo branding which a few people have taken up at shows, and how deeply uncomfortable you felt about that. Can you talk some more about how that idea came up in the first place, and your own reaction to it?

Well, one of my biggest problems with modern music is that there’s this cult of personality – that you ascribe more to the artist than to the art itself. And to me that’s, like, basically giving in, or basically presenting yourself as a slave to that idea. So as an extension of that, I thought how funny would it be if there was a branding iron, and that would explain to people how silly it is. But I think the explanation part was a little weak, and people actually took us up on it! [Laughs] Proving our point, but… yeah.

Have you actually met anyone that’s done that, and tried to explain it to them afterwards?

Well, I explained it to them before… and I have to add now that everyone was sober during that; we wouldn’t do it to a drunk person. Uh… yeah! They just really wanted the brand, bro! [Laughs]

Well, who are you to get in the way of people’s dreams, I suppose…?

There you go. That’s what keeps me sleeping tonight…! [Laughs]

Just going back to the lyrical content again, there are a few tracks here which position death in a specific socio-historical context for African-Americans, but ‘You Ain’t Coming Back’ seems to tap into the idea of death as liberation for a slave. Is pairing these two very extreme musical forms an act of reclamation for you? An act of power?

Well, to be perfectly transparent, it’s just music I enjoy making. I think I could talk all day about how liberating it is and whatever, but I think I’d just be pulling those things out of my fingers after the fact. It’s nice; it’s a nice side-effect, but it wasn’t the initial intent. It’s nice to reclaim things even maybe as racially-stirred as black metal – but I just enjoy listening to black metal, so…

As someone who’s Swiss-American rather than African-American, do you feel in a sufficient position as an outsider where you can maybe comment on that and “get away with it”, so to speak?

I definitely enjoy a unique perspective, where I’m kind of an outsider and still have the liberty of using elements that other people might not have the luxury of using. But I don’t really think too much about that – it goes back to that really weird cultural appropriation discussion, where I just fail to care at some point. Because, you know, culture is something open, I believe – and if you’re protective of your culture, you’re just kind of regressive. It’s a question of intent. If I want to mock something, that’s a whole other thing than if I want to create something new of it. Does that make any sense…?!

It does make sense. I was saying recently that with your band, whether people get it or not, whether they even like it or not, sometimes it’s simply enough to be the first – and you are most definitely that. You’ve created something almost entirely unique – and that in and of itself is a remarkable achievement in this day and age.

…Yeah, but it’s not something I want to rest upon. I still want to do something good! [Laughs]

Well, I mean, it is good as well, of course! But, with that in mind, how long do you feel you can spin this concept out? Is it in it for the long run, for you…?

Uh, we’ll see – the moment that I think we have to force ourselves to make something new, or the moment there’s, like, an effort, or no excitement, or no fascination with creating something, we probably have to move on to something else. And I think there’s still stuff to be explored right now – but I see it as a finite thing, to be honest.

Devin Townsend is someone who has a slight electronic or industrial element to what he does – is that something you’d maybe look into exploring in the future?

Maybe! Maybe. But I’d maybe rather do something more leftfield. Honestly…? I don’t fuckin’ know, man! [Laughs] I still have to get the idea!

Stranger Fruit is available now via MVKA.